India-US Space Cooperation: NASA and India's Moon Mission

INDIA ABROAD, APRIL 25, 2008
Pages A22 & 23

MICHAEL GRIFFIN: THE NASA ADMINISTRATOR DISCUSSES INDIA'S MOON MISSION WITH MANAGING EDITOR AZIZ HANIFFA

**Cooperation between Indian and the US in space can be useful for both sides because the Indian technical community is superb.

**I would like to see India in future years join with us to return people to the moon, among them Indian astronauts.

**I hope that India-US space cooperation will not be impacted by the progress of the nuclear agreement, whether or not that goes well.

From his well-appointed office on the ninth floor of the National Aeronautics and Space Administration, its Administrator Dr. Michael Griffin looks out on a vista of increased space cooperation in which, he hopes, India will play an increasing role.

Dr. Griffin, who has visited India twice since taking over the top slot at NASA, is currently looking forward to the launch of the Indian Space Research Organization's moon probe Chandrayaan-1 -- not only because it will mark the first occasion an Indian space launch vehicle carries advanced United States technological payload, but because of his belief that it will signal the start of sustained US-India cooperation in outer space.

His connection with all things India dates back to his student days at the University of Maryland, when he met, and became friends with, several Indian American students who have remained among his closest friends.

One such -- Dr. Ajay Kothari, President & CEO, Astrox Corporation, in Maryland, an aerospace research and development company that works closely with NASA -- told India Abroad: "When we were taking our graduate classes, there would be four, five students only in some of them: three of whom were Indians, along with Mike and maybe one more."

Dr. Kothari describes his friend as "quick-witted with a great sense of humor, which still comes through quite often, and of course, stupendously smart. We used to share one of those graduate assistant offices with Mike, and we also had the same advisor, Professor John Anderson, then Head of the Department of Aerospace Engineering, now a very well known name in the aerospace world with eight books to his credit.

"At the time, little did we realize that our good friend Mike would one day go on to become head of the country's space program and take NASA to the new heights that he has."

Dr. Griffin started out in academia, teaching courses in spacecraft design and related subjects at the University of Maryland, Johns Hopkins University, and George Washington University. Besides various stints in the private sector, he has served as Chief Engineer and as Associate Administrator for Exploration at NASA, and as Deputy for Technology at the Strategic Defense Initiative Organization.

Q. How significant is the U.S. participation in Chandrayaan-1, India's moon project? Isn't this the first time a U.S. payload will be aboard an Indian space vehicle?

A. I believe that is true -- this is the first time, and I am delighted. It was a competitive process, and so I'm glad a U.S. payload successfully competed to be aboard the instruments suite on Chandrayaan-1. It's terrific that the Indian Space Research Organization is carrying out this mission. It's very symbolic of the kind of cooperation that I would like to see between India and the United States going forward, in space.

Q. Have you any indication from ISRO as to when it will finally take place? You were, I understand, hoping it was going to be sometime this month.

A. Loosely speaking, in June is what I am hearing. I want Chandrayaan-1 to launch when it's ready, (and) not because we reach a date on the calendar.

Q. I understand the U.S. payload, which you have said is symbolic of future cooperation, comprises some very important instrumentation that NASA is getting together.

A. It is not symbolic. It's a scientific investigation. The payload is synthetic aperture radar -- radar that will help detect the presence of water ice on the moon and the poles, if indeed it exists.

Q. During your interaction with ISRO, Chairman Dr. Madhavan Nair at the Kennedy Space Center, when he visited the U.S. in January-February, you signed a new framework agreement establishing the terms of future cooperation between ISRO and NASA in the exploration and use of outerspace for peaceful purposes. How far to you hope to take this agreement, and is the U.S.-India space cooperation now institutionalized?

A. The purpose of a framework agreement is to institutionalize the possibilities for cooperative activities on successive missions without having to go back to our parent authorities each time. To get the first framework agreement through requires that I work with the White House and State Department and other entities in the U.S. government, and I'm sure that Dr. Nair has similar constraints.

But once we have commissioned for the framework agreement, then we can continue if India does Chandrayaan-2 and if we are able to complete successfully for a payload aboard Chandrayaan that's covered in the framework agreement. And, similarly, if we want to fly an Indian instrument on an American mission, that is also covered. So, the purpose of the framework agreement is to institutionalize a certain level of cooperation.

Q. Taking off from that, do you see India in the coming years becoming a major partner for the U.S. in space cooperation?

A. Let me say at this point that I hope that's the case. Why do I hope that? Several reasons: the United States is by no means a perfect nation, but we are the world's oldest democracy and we try very hard to live up to our ideals. India is the world's largest democracy, and I think that there must be opportunities for us to cooperate because of our fundamentally shared values. In many respects, they are not completely shared, but there is a large overlap of shared values. I know this because of the many Indian friends that I have.

Another reason why I think cooperation between India and the United States in space can be useful for both sides is, the Indian technical community is superb. You have in India wonderful technical schools -- scientific, mathematics, engineering; a population that values education in terms of a way to get ahead in life, to improve oneself. In years past, in my generation, many of the best Indian students came to the United States and then stayed here. Now, many of those students are coming to the United States for advanced education and then going back home, which I think is good for the Indian people. But, that means that many people -- a significant number of India's technical community -- has had some education in America. So, they know us. There are two million Indians in America; so, many of us in the technical community have an opportunity to know them.

So we have had opportunities to get to know one another -- to learn common things together -- and it forms a basis for engineering and technical cooperation. Another reason we can work effectively together is that we do share a common language. The times when I have been to India, and the many more times when I have worked with Indians over here in the States -- India has what, four or five official languages. But the one language that almost all Indians have in common is English. [Actually, India has two official languages -- Hindi, the official language, and English, the associate official language. And India has 22 national languages.] So, surprisingly, there is a much lower language barrier between India and the United States than between the United States and everyone else we partner with, because everyone else is working in a second language. For Indians, it might be their fourth language, but they all know English. So, for those reasons there are very solid grounds for future cooperation.

Q. You visited India in 2006 and 2007, and hosted your counterpart Dr. Nair this year. But there was a time not too long ago -- just after the nuclear tests in May 1998 -- when ISRO had been slapped with sanctions, its officials were denied visas even to come here for conferences, etc. Is that now a thing of the past? Have all sanctions been lifted against ISRO, and is space cooperation between NASA and ISRO now a given, where it can be exploited to its fullest potential?

A. I am not familiar either with the sanctions or the events that led up to them, and so I just shouldn't comment. I do know that our President [George W. Bush] visited India shortly before I did, in the spring of 2006 and expressed a strong desire for greater cooperation between the two countries, which was well received on both sides. And I followed up with a visit to the space community. So, I hope that we are past any issues of sanctions, but I personally do not know where we stand on that and most crucially for your audience, NASA is not in charge of that. That is the purview of the State Department and others, but not NASA.

Q. After Chandrayaan-1, where do you foresee U.S.-India space cooperation going? Do you see some major commercialization? While Dr. Nair was here, he said commercialization benefits were a fraction of the potential -- in fact, in a speech at the CSIS [Center for Strategic and International Studies], he said it was only in the region of $10-$20 million, when it could potentially be in the billions. Are there any plans to rapidly increase this revenue base and get some American firms and industry involved in promoting such mutual commercialization?

A. I am a strong proponent, and I know that Dr. Nair is as well, of increased commercial activity in space. And to achieve that, it means the government has to lead the way. We have to welcome commercial activity. Whether there is an opportunity for commercial activity between the United States and India, I don't know -- but I hope so. The world does better when markets are open. But, again, you are outside my area of expertise and so I really don't know.

Q. But you do see tremendous potential if extraneous issues are resolved?

A. I do. If other issues can be resolved, I see the potential for commercial space activities between the U.S. and India.

Q. Do you think India should put a man on the moon? Also, is it a good thing for India to have a Mars mission?

A. I would like to see India in future years join with us to return people to the moon, among them Indian astronauts -- that's what I would like to see. As we are returning to the moon, we will be, I hope, going there in company with the international partners that helped build the space station. I would like to add India to that group, I would like to add India to that partnership.

Q. And in terms of a Mars mission?

A. That will come later. That's another generation. But in time, yes.

Q. It is something that hopefully can evolve after perhaps a joint moon mission?

A. Exactly. The moon is a target for the 20 teens, and Mars is a target for the 2030s -- so, about a generation apart.

Q. Is NASA considering including India in its planet exploration plans?

A. Not yet. I mean, we have just begun this framework of cooperation, so I hope that that will evolve.

Q. You said you were impressed with the technical schools in India, during your visit. Did you also find an increasing technological prowess in terms of capabilities, that you saw in this emerging India?

A I have only had two visits to India, three or four days each, and so that doesn't afford a lot of opportunity to measure trends. What I did say was that I had a chance to see the Engine Development Centre, the Launch Centre, the Satellite Development Centre, and I was very impressed with the quality of the engineering facilities and the engineering work that I saw. I mean that. Now I can't tell -- because I don't have a long history of observation -- whether the trend is up or level or down. I presume that it's up, but I don't have any background to know that. What I saw, I was very impressed with.

Q. The late Kalpana Chawla was the first Indian American astronaut to be part of a space shuttle mission, and she was followed by Sunita Williams -- both of whom are icons in India and among the Indian American community here. Do you foresee many Indian Americans following in their footsteps? And what next do you have in mind for Sunita?

A. I am not in charge of Sunita's new assignments, so I have no idea. She is highly regarded. As you know, she's an officer in the U.S. Navy as well as an astronaut. She is very well thought of. So I'm sure her future is good. As to whether other Indian American technical professionals will apply to and be accepted in the astronaut corps, I hope so. One of those who almost made it -- but not quite -- is a good friends of mine and was a former student of mine. I won't for privacy reasons give his name, but I was crossing my fingers that he would get accepted because he was a Ph.D. student of mine. He had applied to be an astronaut, after Sunita. I hope some of the Indian American technical community will decide that they want to be astronauts and will come join.

Q. So there's definitely a pool of qualified technical personnel for future astronauts among this Indian American community at NASA?

A. Again, depending on the skill mix that we want, yes.

Q. If the US-India civilian nuclear deal is not consummated, are you concerned that it could adversely impact on US-India space cooperation, in that US industry and business may be turned off to the extent that promoting US-India space commercialization may come to a grinding halt?

A. I don't know. I can't as NASA administrator speak to anything other than space. And what is even worse is I don't know anything about the nuclear situation or cooperation. So, I just can't comment. I hope that India and U.S. space cooperation will not be impacted by the progress of the nuclear agreement -- whether or not that goes well. There is a way we have to look at this: we can always find reasons to disagree if we want to. There are valid reasons to agree based on the values that each country holds dear, and there are valid reasons to disagree. We can always find reasons to agree in other areas. So, I suggest that as a starting point, we look for areas where we can agree and pursue those, and then let some of the disagreements follow in their own time. Sometimes, when you find areas where we can agree, you find that the areas where you thought you disagreed on aren't so bad. We will never have a perfect alignment of values between our two societies. We shouldn't even look for that. In my opinion, we should look for areas where we have common mutual interests and where our values are aligned, and make success stories out of these.

Q. When you were doing your Ph.D. at the University of Maryland's Department of Aeronautical Engineering, I believe you had quite a few close Indian colleagues like Dr. Ajay Kothari and others, who have remained your friends. What was that student experience like, where you interacted closely with these Indian colleagues and got a taste of Indian culture, food, and of course, the future top-notch calibre of Indian scientists? Ajay tells me about the fun times you guys had, and Dr. [K N] Parthasarathy spoke of how you very generously taught them to drive in your spanking new BMW?

A. I did, I taught several of them to drive. Those were fun days. My experience as a graduate student and background maybe was a little different. I had graduated from undergraduate school in 1971, from Johns Hopkins in physics and then I worked for three years. So I built up a certain amount of money -- obviously enough to afford a BMW -- and also got a Master's degree by going to college part-time in the evenings. Then, I decided I wanted to get a Ph.D. and I knew I had to do that full-time. So in 1974, I went back to graduate school, full-time with a Master's behind me and with the experience of three years at work, and I was very focused on accomplishing my goals.

The University of Maryland is a very cosmopolitan school, and when I was there we had students from Egypt, India, Pakistan, Germany, England, just in our department, as well as America. It was a very cosmopolitan place and I enjoyed that very much. There were several Indian students there and I got to know them and I was very impressed by the quality of the undergraduate education that they had -- that they brought to the school. I was also very impressed with just how nice people they were. And so I would invite them for dinner at my house or I would go out to eat with them at Indian restaurants or whatever, and learned to enjoy the food.

India is a very diverse nation and not all of you like each other very much, and so, I once said to my friends, I think I like you all better than you like each other, which became a somewhat famous remark in our group, because they often couldn't get along but I could get along with all of them. And so other things came up; those who intended to remain here wanted to learn to drive and I said, well, I will teach you to drive. So I taught several of them to drive, things like that. It just happened during one's student years, and they were very good years for me.

Q. Those friends of yours went on to start companies, head scientific departments and research facilities in top colleges and companies and so on?

A. You bet. One of them [Dr. Parthasarathy] works at the Applied Physics Laboratory [in Laurel, Maryland]. Another [Dr. Ram Diwaker] is a Director of Research at General Motors [in Warren, Michigan], and Ajay [Kothari] as you know has his own company [Astrox Corporation, an aerospace research and development company designing hypersonic aircraft] in Maryland. A couple of them have gone back to India. I mean, they all wound up getting Ph.Ds. They were a superb group of people.

Q. Do you have plans to visit India soon?

A. I'm actually hoping to go for the Chandrayaan launch if it doesn't interfere with other stuff I have to do. But my intention is to go for the launch, depending on when it is.
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